Creative Unmasking - guest Chris Cambell

Start Time:: 00:00:02

Jenn Wilson: Hi everyone and welcome to this episode of the irregular humans podcast with me, Jenn Wilson and my guest today is the amazing Chris Campbell, Hi. Chris.

Chris Cambell: Hey? How you doing, Jenn?

Jenn Wilson: I'm good. Now, Chris is important to irregular, because they are the person who designed the irregular logo and all the visuals and things on our on our website, which is awesome as well as design and visual art. Chris is also a writer and a poet and a spoken word artist, and a bunch of other things. Chris, tell us about you and and your irregularness.

Chris Cambell: Yeah, absolutely. So. My name's Chris. I'm an immigrant from the Us. Moved over here to the Uk. 14 years ago, which feels like an awfully long time when I say it out loud.

Chris Cambell: I'm neurodivergent. I've got Adhd Asd. Also, I'm queer and non-binary and native American, and all of these things that society usually looks at and goes. That's not quite right. Why don't you just change a little bit?

Chris Cambell: So I feel very comfortable with the moniker irregular. It's something that for most of my life has just kind of been the assumed default.

Chris Cambell: And so it's been actually really strange in adult life, especially as you know, you sort of move out of the orbit of your parents, which for me was extremely chaotic, like I came from a family of hippies and criminals. So we were always moving for sort of good vibes or bad vibes, and coming out of that, and then being like, Oh, suddenly, like I'm in charge, and I can decide what I do, you know, within my own

Chris Cambell: financial limitations and things like that. It then was like, Oh.

Chris Cambell: hmm, okay, I guess I should probably try to be a little bit more normal. And I definitely fell into a lot of like

Chris Cambell: things that would maybe be surprising for most people, seeing how

Chris Cambell: out of the ordinary I tend to like make decisions, things like sort of compulsive, heteronormative heteronormativity and stuff like that, because, even though, like I grew up being attracted to people of all genders, I was just like, that's what we're all dealing with, right. And it was literally like not until I was almost 30 that I realized like, Oh, maybe that's maybe that's not.

Jenn Wilson: The way everybody else is experiencing this.

Jenn Wilson: Oh, I absolutely relate to that, like I literally thought that I was a straight person until I was well into my forties, and I just thought everyone thought that female shapes were sexy as well as male shapes, and all the other shapes, and, like humans are beautiful and like.

Jenn Wilson: you know, because most of my relationships had been with me, presenting as a woman and with men. I just thought I was straight, but actually turns out, I'm not. Wow! Who knew.

Chris Cambell: And and like similar, with like gender like, there was probably a period of 10 years. Well, really, the the 1st 10 years of my marriage. Where, like

Chris Cambell: I was like, oh, I really have to play this role of like being a man, because from the age of 4 I knew, like the way I always thought of it is like, Oh, no, there's something wrong with me, and and I just hope nobody ever finds out, because, like I am an outsider in this group that I'm supposed to be inside of.

Chris Cambell: And it's like, I'm just a boy who doesn't speak, boy well, and and knew that, like from a very young age, and was constantly stressed about it.

Chris Cambell: But you know, didn't realize, like I didn't know the language for non-binary or anything like that until much, much later. And when I 1st learned it, I was like, Oh, man, that'd be like amazing. I wish I could be non-binary.

Chris Cambell: Too bad. I guess I just have to keep playing this role of like man. But anyway, like all of that to say, after university, I sort of like settled into like adult life. And it became really apparent that, yeah, like none of what I bring to the table. Aside from what I can produce as a creative.

Chris Cambell: Is like that valuable to the people around me, like most people like it for the short term. But after a few months of like asking questions, making suggestions, trying to optimize. They're like, listen, okay, you've done enough. We don't want more of this. You're actually now just giving me like a headache, because, like, we don't need to do better than we're doing at this job.

Chris Cambell: So stop. And I'm like, Oh, what sorry I thought like that was how I got my value. Anyway. So

Chris Cambell: I think there was this long period where I was

Chris Cambell: falling into a lot of the things that society says you should do, and even though I wasn't very good at doing them that way, I really just

Chris Cambell: doubled down, tripled down, quadrupled down, and pushed myself, and it wasn't until again, like sort of about age 30 that I started realizing. Wait a second. Maybe maybe there's more to this. Maybe there's just something about why I'm not fitting in, and the reason I had never been willing to consider that before then is growing up. I grew up in like like I said, a lot of chaos, a lot of really bad situations.

Chris Cambell: a lot of like abuse and and just meandering and transient and homelessness, and all of these things, and I was determined as someone who didn't expect to survive that

Chris Cambell: that like. When I finally got away from that family situation, I was like. I'm not going to let this define me, and I really stubbornly stuck to that I was like for years, I would say, Oh, look! I went through all of this stuff, had no impact on me, didn't do anything to me. I don't know. I guess I'm just special. And then, you know, when you start to realize. Oh, actually.

Chris Cambell: you know, that's that's just kind of hiding from from the impact that has, it's okay to acknowledge that this stuff has an impact on you without it making you wrong or without it, making you bad or without it, feeling like, oh, I'm looking for pity from other people, because that was what I was always afraid of is that people would look down on me because growing up. That was the worst feeling for me is when people would be like, Oh, pity!

Chris Cambell: But when I when I turned about 30, I started being like, Huh, okay, a lot of my friends have Adhd. Maybe I should start looking into that, so I can be a better friend, and the more I looked into it the more I'm like. I don't know. This kind of sounds just like me, and again, like a lot of my friends were were queer. They were Bi, or they were Pan, or they were non-binary. And I was like, Oh, wow! Or they're trans. And all these different things I'm like, hmm! I guess I need to like

Chris Cambell: learn more about this stuff, because, you know, I want to be a good friend and like I don't want to say the wrong thing, or like accidentally upset someone. I don't.

Chris Cambell: I'm a little weird in that, like I don't mind upsetting people at all if, like they're upset

Chris Cambell: by having understood what I actually meant. It's just like being misunderstood if I've upset someone. But like it's because they've misunderstood me, I will think about that for decades. Yeah. But

Chris Cambell: as I'm exploring all of this stuff as I'm unpacking all of this stuff, just thinking, oh, I guess I'll be a really good friend. I guess I'll be a really good friend. I realized, oh, wait, all of these Adhd traits! That's exactly what I do. How is this different? And as I was unpacking all of these different

Chris Cambell: aspects of identity. It really was this this

Chris Cambell: time of going. But wait! Isn't everyone like this? But wait? Isn't everyone like this? And previously the only similar experience I had gone through with that was with racism. So I'm native American, which has meant like, I'm a little ethnically ambiguous, and anybody who's racist has always been like, oh, you're that race that I hate, and I've always been like that's not racism that's inaccurate.

Chris Cambell: And that was how I dealt with it. And then over time realizing, oh, yeah, actually, that is still racism as well. Even if it's not accurate, it doesn't change the fact that, like I'm on the receiving end of a lot of racism, and I had to go through that. Oh, wait! This is not what everyone experiences like. I've just never thought of myself as like different in that way, like in a way that was significant. But other people are.

Chris Cambell: and kind of like came to terms with that. And so I would say really over the last, like 7 or 8 years. It's been kind of a very painful process of taking all of those things that

Chris Cambell: were always true of me that were always very evident to anyone who is paying attention and going. Oh, okay, well, let's just put these to the forefront, and let's not be apologetic about these things. Let's just actually say, well, yeah, this is just this part of me. And like, that's, that's just some of my Chris Campbell's secret sauce, and like, if you liked the Big Mac before this, then why would you dislike the Big Mac after this?

Chris Cambell: But it has been interesting, because

Chris Cambell: for me I was like, Oh, this is nice. I know the right words to use for other people. It was. No, that's not how I think about you. That's not who you are, and even even just having like

Chris Cambell: being in a monogamous married like

Chris Cambell: seemingly Cis had relationship from the outside. And then being like, Oh, yeah. By the way, like.

Chris Cambell: I'm pansexual. It's not a big deal. I'm not asking to change like our relationship. But like, I'm pansexual. Also, like I'm non-binary, which is, isn't that kind of cool? And then being told like, Oh, no like, don't don't ever tell anyone. And like, let's not talk about this anymore. And then being like, Oh, but like, we've got kids like, what are we doing? And and

Chris Cambell: you know, just sticking with it. And and fortunately my partner has, like massively changed tack, and like, is a lot more understanding, but

Chris Cambell: has been a really painful process, and even friends of mine, who maybe like, have different

Chris Cambell: religious beliefs, who are like

Chris Cambell: some of my closest friends. And when I mentioned to them, oh, yeah, I'm not binary. And I knew they were

Chris Cambell: very, not friendly to that. And they're like, Oh, yeah, don't worry. It doesn't change anything. It just means like I would never talk to you about how I feel about anybody who's non-binary. And I'm like, Okay, well, like, you do realize how that's that's that's saying a lot that I'm not sure you understand that it's saying. And then just going, oh, okay.

Chris Cambell: this is interesting. But I find, as someone who has never been able to lie very easily, because when you lie, it's like you create like a whole new reality and trying to sustain like the reality I'm in is so stressful already that like, I just can't handle spinning off multiple other realities and like having to make sure that they're supported.

Chris Cambell: It just. It feels much more natural and much more freeing to just have embraced. Sort of this is who I am. This is the way I am, and

Chris Cambell: being able to kind of name those things has switched from. Oh, you know, I'm a little different to Oh, hey! I'm actually very different. And that's a strength, not a weakness. And in my day job, I run a creative agency. So graphic design web design all sorts of things. Basically, if you have a business problem and you can solve it through telling a better story. That's that's what I'm there to do.

Chris Cambell: being able to say. Oh, well, actually working with me. I come at it from just angles you would never think to, because I just live my life. And I think in ways they're very different than the norm. Suddenly, that's not. Oh, I'm sorry if it sounds a little weird, you know. I don't know. It's just the way I work. It's like, well, no, actually, I know where I'm at. I know why I'm there, and I can also articulate the value in that.

Jenn Wilson: Yeah.

Chris Cambell: For the most part that has helped people. Every once in a while you do run into like either overt or covert Ableism, where people

Chris Cambell: don't realize they're kind of condescending when you tell them like, Oh, I've got Adhd, or if they're like, Oh, yeah. Well, have you tried cutting out gluten, and you're just like what the

Chris Cambell: that's not how that works.

Jenn Wilson: That is the one that it's like you need, Yoga and Veganism, and that will solve all your problems like those are nice, healthy things, but they're not necessarily the solution to everyone's problem.

Chris Cambell: Exactly exactly. But yeah. And then, even, I suppose, looking at like, I suppose the day to day, which I think is how a lot of people tend to like, classify themselves.

Chris Cambell: I was mentioned just before we started that recently I applied for this this opportunity, and I really hate applications. To be honest, like having to try to like. Put myself on one side of an A. 4 feels like the most painful belittling process in the world I would genuinely prefer like, okay, you'll just like like.

Chris Cambell: slam into me with your car, and then we'll have an interview like yes, please. That would be preferable. But I was like, you know what this sounds like a really cool opportunity. I'll

Chris Cambell: I'll go through this, and I don't have just the thing I copy paste every time, which would be probably the efficient way of doing it.

Chris Cambell: But I'm always like, Oh, that just doesn't feel tailored to what they're asking for. But

Chris Cambell: right away it was like, what was your professional experience that you would bring to this role. And I kind of had to be like, okay, like, I'm just going to stop you right there. This is going to sound weird. This probably is not what you're expecting. I kind of break down what I've done. Career wise or professionally, into like 3 categories. The 1st is sort of, you know, professional pursuits that have made sure the bills have been paid.

Chris Cambell: they make sure, like things are consistently provided for. Then there's sort of creative fulfillment. So a lot of that has been unpaid. A lot of that has been paid, but it wouldn't sustain. You know, 3 kids. It just is something that like I can't not do. And then the 3rd category was essentially just

Chris Cambell: creative, no speculative explorations.

Chris Cambell: And it's just kind of funny with that, because it's like very small word count. So I was just like my speculative explorations have included. Founding a Tech Coffee company called Perk, with David Hockney's nephew, designing coffee tasting app called palette. I worked as an editor-in-chief for 2 different new media startups, one revolving around art and fashion in London, another around racial justice in La.

Chris Cambell: And like, I didn't even get to touch on like, you know board, game, design, and all of this, like other random stuff that I've done. But it was just. It was just, I realized, oh, man, I kind of need to rewrite the rules for how people are going to interpret what they are seeing from me, and what they're hearing from me, and how they're thinking about me.

Chris Cambell: and obviously that's 1 application, and I don't know how

Chris Cambell: successful or unsuccessful that will be. But I do think that is the skill that I've kind of learned alongside.

Chris Cambell: just embracing. Oh, yeah, this is who I am, and that's that shouldn't be a problem for people.

Jenn Wilson: Yeah.

Chris Cambell: Is letting them know. This is how to start thinking about me.

Jenn Wilson: I thank you, Chris, and I love this whole. This really echoes the journey I've been through as well, albeit mine, I think maybe has been a little slower, and certainly a little bit later in my life. But that

Jenn Wilson: kind of 1st of all, discovering, through knowing other people, this self-awareness, that

Jenn Wilson: the weirdness that you've held inside is actually not as weird as all that, because there are other people who are the same kind of weird or a different version of it. And then the leaning into that and going. Oh, actually, this is really hard. This is really hard. Because suddenly.

Jenn Wilson: although it was really hard and really painful

Jenn Wilson: trying to exist inside that normative mask frame limit that you and I kind of boxed ourselves into for a while.

Jenn Wilson: When you come out of it.

Jenn Wilson: You're kind of breaking new ground all the time, and you're constantly in unfamiliar territory, and it's scary out there trying to find your way, and there's no rules to follow, and there's no structure for this.

Jenn Wilson: And then after a while, you kind of go. Okay. I've got the shape of this landscape, and I can move through it confidently, knowing that I'm not going to fall down a ravine tomorrow, stretching the metaphor a little bit because I've been walking through this unfamiliar landscape long enough to know my own way. Kind of thing.

Jenn Wilson: I really think that that's a journey that lots of people do go on as they hit kind of midlife in various ways, perhaps not as extremely as you and I, with queerness and disabilities and neurodivergences thrown in the mix, but just through kind of self-discovery, and growing up in that bit where you were in the bit where you were kind of.

Jenn Wilson: I can't try and exist in the box called normal anymore. And I'm breaking out of it. And it was difficult.

Jenn Wilson: What were the ways that you navigated that and found your way through it and didn't just go. Oh, fuck it! I'll just get back in the box, you know.

Chris Cambell: Yeah, absolutely. I think for me a really

Chris Cambell: really helpful aspect. 2 helpful aspects that

Chris Cambell: wouldn't have helped. Probably most people. One is, I was running my own business, and I didn't have a lot of savings when I started doing that. It was sort of. I had been employed by a charity, and was doing good work there. Unfortunately, the CEO end up like massively overspending, and so they let go everyone who had been there for less than a year. I had been there 11 months.

Chris Cambell: and so at that time, though, I was balancing this job where I was going, and I was doing work in an office. But also I was doing so much freelance work on the side. And I thought, you know what.

Chris Cambell: it's really hard to find a job in this area. Right now.

Chris Cambell: I could just ramp up my freelance. And so I did that. And in some ways very good decision. Because, you know, I think neurodivergent people work very well when they're working for themselves, when they're not sort of saddled with a lot of the stress that comes with fitting in with an office culture or having to deal with line managers who

Chris Cambell: don't understand what it is that you're meant to do. And so they really have difficulty understanding how to manage you. A lot of that just never made sense to me. And so, anyway.

Chris Cambell: all that said, when I really started unpacking these things, I was extremely, socially isolated. I was working from a home office

Chris Cambell: and I was working very long hours. And so most of my correspondence with anyone was email phone call or video call. And because of that, it meant that I could kind of

Chris Cambell: put more of myself into those in a way that was very isolated, that was very insulated and safe from the rest of my life, and I experimented, in a sense, with being more and more open about those things in those spaces, and, you know, mostly got really positive, like response. And I'm like, Oh, wait! This is something I can do. And then, you know, after a year or 2 of that

Chris Cambell: it was the pandemic, and everybody came inside, and a lot of people remember the pandemic as, Oh, wow! It was awful like I can't like. I went stir crazy. And all this for me. It was like everybody got on my level like we were all only emails, phone calls or video chats. And honestly, it was the most social I had been like for a couple of years before that, because

Chris Cambell: everybody like there was no commute time. There was no like. What bus are you going to take? What train are you going to get? What pub are you gonna meet at like, what restaurant are you going to go to? It was like, no, it doesn't matter. We're all going to be at our computers at 3 o'clock, and like that is all you need to worry about. And that was easy for me. And I think that using the Internet in that way.

Chris Cambell: it felt very easy and natural for me to then sort of explore those different aspects of identity. And then sort of with one group that you felt safe with, Go okay, cool. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna mention that like, Hey, this is this is who I am. And if that goes well, then, like, maybe that extends to another group, and you just keep expanding out. And it in some ways I was concerned initially like, Oh, is this duplicitous? But really, in a sense, it was like it wasn't

Chris Cambell: a process of oh, no, I've got this part of myself that I'm going to like. Hide over here in a corner. It's like, no, here's this part of myself that's always been here in the corner, and I'm just like showing it to people selectively and over time. It's like something that will never go back into that corner, and and that was really lovely and awesome, and when I think about it, it feels very reminiscent when

Chris Cambell: I hear Elder Queers talk about their experience of like, you know, chat rooms in the nineties, and stuff like that, or like any of these, like little like websites where people tend to congregate and talk, and and you know, explore who they are that

Chris Cambell: you know, that was the same thing I was doing. It just wasn't based around one website or one platform. It was more just methods of communicating had really like grown and expanded in ways that 20 years before that would have kind of been unthinkable.

Jenn Wilson: Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? That pandemic? I mean, I almost immediately saw the pandemic as a gift. Personally, I mean, it had all of the horrors. Of course I'm not. You know the thousands and thousands of people that died, and all of the terrible things. But for me I hadn't been having that experience that you had of having meetings online. In fact, I remember, just a few months before the pandemic

Jenn Wilson: having a meeting with people nationally in England that I had to drive to from Yorkshire to Tamworth in Services Service station in Birmingham, which is kind of 2, 2 and a half hour drive, and there were people driving up from the South West, and we all met in this service station in the Midlands. Now we'd have just hopped on a zoom call, but we spent a whole day traveling to be together and away again, and it's kind of almost crazy to think that we did that back then.

Jenn Wilson: But for me, that online space.

Jenn Wilson: I mean particularly my work around consent really took off, because suddenly I was able to connect in a meeting with people who were doing that work in the States and doing that work in Australia, because that was as easy as meeting someone who's doing it in Leeds down the road. And so well, I mean, apart from the time difference. But yeah, and and like

Jenn Wilson: this

Jenn Wilson: online world of being able to be in my own messy, comfortable space, or at times when I was poorly at the time when I got Covid.

Jenn Wilson: my bed became the Boffice literally, the bed was the office, and you know that you could just connect in those ways with, without ever having to leave the safety of your own house, your own familiar surroundings, your own comfort zone. And I think that there's something really important to remember post pandemic about that of about creating spaces that are safe enough

Jenn Wilson: and comfortable enough for people to be able to

Jenn Wilson: bring the whole of themselves to.

Jenn Wilson: Yeah.

Chris Cambell: Absolutely and also just like what I don't know. If there's a better example

Chris Cambell: for people in modern memory of the world's rules are like what we make them, because before that it was like generally understood, oh, hey, like, if you're like younger, then yeah, you might be using Skype or something else. But like you're never going to get anybody over the age of like 35 or 40 to hop on a video call that just wouldn't happen that's like not going to be possible. And then suddenly, it's like, Oh, wait

Chris Cambell: now, my my in-laws, who are like sixties. They were like very easily on Zoom, or you know Whatsapp Video called. And all these other things. And you're like, Yeah, like, honestly, guys.

Chris Cambell: don't you now see like this should make you think? Oh, wait! All of the rules are made up. We can. We can change those collectively if we want. And instead, unfortunately, what you see is like since lockdown. There's just been more and more of a regression of a no, no, no, let's get back more and more to how it used to be. And obviously there's there's still an impact I don't think will ever be erased. But

Chris Cambell: I think culturally, people are definitely going back to business as normal now, and it's it's a shame.

Jenn Wilson: Yeah. Oh, I absolutely agree with you. And I can remember as we were coming out of it, everything's everyone going. Yay, we're going back to normal. And as someone who, like yourself, has found normal so problematic for so long, I was like, Please, no, please, can we not go back to normal. Please, can we go to a new place

Jenn Wilson: and create a new, not normal? I don't even want there to be such a thing as normal, you know, because normal means that there's other

Jenn Wilson: and othering means excluding and marginalising people for all of those labels and all of those identities that are.

Jenn Wilson: And we're missing the beautiful magical wonderfulness of everybody's diversity and the connection that can come from that, and the creativity that can come from that.

Chris Cambell: 100%. Yeah, yeah.

Jenn Wilson: Yeah.

Jenn Wilson: Oh, Chris, it's been so lovely hearing your story. Thank you for sharing so much of that with us, and if people want to find you and find out more about you and your story, and your writing and your design work. Where can they find you?

Chris Cambell: Yeah. So people can find me@chriscampbell.com

Chris Cambell: or professional services. chriscampbellpoetry.com if they're looking for my poetry, and if they want to find me on social. It's at Chris Campbell on Insta, and really any other platform. The only thing to note is

Chris Cambell: my last name is fake. My dad was a criminal, and for a brief period of time in the States Campbell's soup changed their name from being spelled with a P to without a P. And they reversed it a couple years later because it was like not popular. But anyway, during that time he picked up a can of soup, and was like Campbell. That will be an alias.

Chris Cambell: And so he used that as an alias, and that went on my birth certificate. So it's just like the suit, but there's no P. In it is how I tell people. And usually people remember. So it's Chris Campbell with no P.

Jenn Wilson: Fantastic thanks ever so much, Chris, and we'll talk again soon. Cheers.

Chris Cambell: Hi.

End Time:: 00:00:14